Hi all, maybe someone helps me. I read Takeshi guides and he seems very good and expert. My problem is my ps3 do not start and gives ylod then after many times of trying it starts and DOES NOT STOP AGAIN. If I switch it off and try to start it again it will start with no ylod. When I switch it off it does not go into solid red light but goes to flashing red.I switch it off by the controller.What can the problem be Takeshi?I was going to reball the RSX chip with a stencil kit that I bought from ebay but maybe this is not the problem?Excuse me but I do not speak German but I had to post here because I was impressed by Takeshi level of expertise in his guide and wished to ask to him
Translated german
Hallo alle vielleicht hilft jemand mir. Ich las Takeshi-Führer, und er scheint sehr gut und Experte.Mein Problem ist mein ps3 fangen nicht an und gibt ylod dann danach oft des Versuchens es fängt an und HÄLT WIEDER NICHT AN. Wenn ich es ausschalte und versuche, es wieder anzufangen, fängt es ohne ylod an. Wenn ich umschalte, tritt es davon in festen roten Licht nicht ein aber geht zur roten Verwahrung. Ich schalte es durch den Kontrolleur aus. Was kann das Problem Takeshi sein? Ich war dabei, den RSX-Span mit einem Matrize-Bastelsatz wiederzuballen, den ich von ebay kaufte aber vielleicht das nicht das Problem ist?Entschuldigen Sie mich, aber ich spreche German nicht, aber ich musste hier dahineilen, weil ich durch das Takeshi Niveau des Gutachtens in seinem Führer beeindruckt wurde und zu ihm fragen mochte
Welcome to our Commnity,
i'm not such a pro like Takeshi (now we'll call him Führer, thats funny in your translation :D), but when i read your description, it seems to me that the problem (or solution?) was caused by thermal reasons. Maybe there is still a problem with another BGA, the Cell or sometimes the suthbridge can also have some loosely balls.
Maybe you should reflow your Cell-Processor, this could fix the problem.
Hi, thanks for your input. If I were to do something I will do a reball (I have stencils for cpu,rsx and south bridge) however because that will solve the problem more definitely. However with the symptoms that I mentioned is there a way to pinpoint the source of the problem, Takeshi mentioned onboard fuses and other chips in his guide.
I'm very sure, the reason for your problems are not fuses or other chips. Your console starts after some preheat-time, thats a indication for loosely BGA-balls. Most consoles with this kind of error will get YLOD after some time, your description ist typically for an initiating YLOD in the near future.
If you want pinpoint the real reason on easy way, you should first reflow your cell. If this eliminates the problem, you can be very sure that it was the Cell. And if you are very inspired, you can still do reballing the cell.
If the cell-reflow don't fix the problems, it's still possible that the southbridge has loosly balls (normally this is a very rare case).
Welcome! It's no problem, if you don't speak german. You're not the first one posting in english ;) If you understand us and we understand you, it's all fine. I like it, if people from far away post here. Where are you from?
As DoggyDob said already, it seems to be a BGA with a solderjoint failure. But mostly it's the RSX and the RSX could cause this failure as well as the Cell. I would make a reflow of the RSX, apart from that it is not as risky as a reflow of the Cell.
Which model do you have (CECH...)?
Did you ever do a reballing before? If it's your first try, you should make a reflow and not a reballing. It's not easy to reball a BGA which is as big as the RSX or cell. And it's a myth, that reballing is always better than a reflow. If you make es good reflow, it could solve your problem for a long time (addicted from your console or rather their individual demage and your reflow-method). Bad reballing will solve your problem not a bit or not for a long time. If it's your first try, it will be a bad reballing, due to your missing experience, that's normal. I also needed a long time until it worked as it has to be.
Hey, Takeshi you're right!
I missunderstood the first post. I thought, that he already reballed the RSX, but he just bought a reballing-kit on ebay, right? In this case - of course - he should reflow the RSX first. Im sure that would fix the problem 8)
Yes, i understood so. Than we are in complete agreement :)
Hi all. Takesh, actually I am not from very far away from Germany actually, I am from Malta, that is some 60miles South of Sicily. Yes you di understand correctly I did not reballed the console yet, I am still waiting for the kit to be delivered, as a matter of fact I did not even open the console, it is still with the sony warranty sticker on it. My model is a CECHE 01 (NTSC). So you definitely think its loose solder even if I say that after it (ps3)switches on it does not fail anymore.Doggy dog statement of pre heat time kind of convinced me. Another thing that I must point is that my ps3 is never switching off properly lately.I switch off mostly from the controller and it beeps 3 times and flashes the red led.then i press reset to make it come to solid red again.can this be an indication of something?
Thanks a lot for your input guys
Zitat von: rod905 am 10. Januar 2013, 18:04:03
Hi all. Takesh, actually I am not from very far away from Germany actually, I am from Malta, that is some 60miles South of Sicily.
Ah, cool :)
Zitat von: rod905 am 10. Januar 2013, 18:04:03
My model is a CECHE 01 (NTSC).
Ok, that's a v2, for the other people here, the CECHE01 is like our CECHC04.
Zitat von: rod905 am 10. Januar 2013, 18:04:03
So you definitely think its loose solder even if I say that after it (ps3)switches on it does not fail anymore.Doggy dog statement of pre heat time kind of convinced me.
Yes, that is "normal". The solderjoints are broken, but by heating up, they get pressed together (I hope this translation is right) and the console works fine. Also possible is the oppsite way, the solderjoints are pressed together while the console is cold and by heating up the solderjoints lose contact.
Zitat von: rod905 am 10. Januar 2013, 18:04:03
Another thing that I must point is that my ps3 is never switching off properly lately.I switch off mostly from the controller and it beeps 3 times and flashes the red led.then i press reset to make it come to solid red again.can this be an indication of something?
Hm, strange. It might relate to your YLOD. If it happens also after the reflow, we can still think about it.
Hi Takeshi, you got me a lot into thinking about not reballing the motherboard as I was all ready to go for it. But you surely know a lot about it more than myself. I have some questions though:
(1)If I do a reflow, and it fails (immediately or after some days)and need to do a reball it would be more difficult that doing a reball the first time (with the motherboard never touched before)?
(2)I do not have a jig, now I think thats an important piece of equipment to prevent warping, as you said somewhere else that is the source of the ylod, changes in temp and warping. But I do not feel the need to buy one If I know the positioning (dimensions) of the motherboard I would easily meke one from a piece of flat wood by drilling holes in it (wood) and place screws and spacers to elevate the board. Do you have or maybe provide a link with the measurements of the holes of the ceche motherboard?
(3)In your guide you provided this procedure:
Heat up the whole board from the bottom side until you can barely touch it anymore. Afterwards,
heat up the area where the RSX is located for
- 10 seconds from the bottom side
- 10 seconds from the upper side
- 20s bottom
- 10s upper
- 20s bottom
- 10s upper
- 10s bottom
I can obtain an ir beam (gun) thermometer, Can you suggest temperatures for these steps, as I beleive that would minimize risks a lot.
(4)What is dissolved colophony?is it that important?I am waiting for no clean flux from ebay,is it the same thing?
(5)Everyone on the web seems that like to use artic silver as thermal paste, but I read that are some people who advise against it as it is conductive, what would you advise to use?
(6)I was watching reballing videos and I did not know that you must remove the stencil to heat and melt the balls!Before I thought it is easier because you keep the balls in the stencil and heat everything about(the balls will not be blown away if they are in the stencil)Now the stencils that I bought are direct heat, does it mean that you heat the stencil altogether with the balls in it or they will stick to the stencil that way?it(the stencil) is supposed to be made of stainless steel.
Hi rod905,
i think i'm able to answer some of your questions.
1)
If you don't damage the RSX or the mainboard itself during a reflow, it doesn't matter for a further reball.
2)
A jig is recommend for reballing, because it's important that the mainboard is as flat as possible. If the board bent out of shape during a reball, it can result solderjoint errors after cool down. As far as i know, you can prevent bending if all areas of the board are always at the same temperature. If you can do this, you don't need a jig to hold the board in place.
3)
The temperature observed version to do a re-flow is at the moment only available in German. Maybe the google-translation of this page will help you:
http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trisaster.de%2Fpage%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D320&act=url
Please look at the section "Reflow with Temperturmessung", this should help you to do a better quality reflow.
4)
Dissolved colophony is a mixture of natural flux (colophony) and isopropyl alcohol. The colophonium flux is nature based resin and tenacious. If you dissolve some colophony in isopropyl, the mixture will flow between the BGA and mainboard. The isopropyl evaporates after some slight heat-up (max. 50°C) and you have a thin coat colophony under the whole BGA. This will help to fix bad solderjoints.
No clean flux can also do the job, but unfortunately on eBay you'll find more and more bad products. There are flux-mixtures with less than <2% real flux, so if you use it you can also use no flux and got the same result - a bad quality reflow. It's very important and very recommended to use good quality flux to get a working reflow. A good and cheap flux is dissolved colophony.
5)
The conductive Arctic Silver is no risk if you use it as prescribed, but cheaper silicon-based paste does the job as good as expensive paste like Arctic Silver. Takeshi has tested some thermal paste, there are no big differences in temperature. I use Arctic Silver for years in my PC and the PS3, i had no problems so far. In the future, i will buy some cheaper thermal paste for use in PS3.
6)
This is a special part, it's better if our Führer answer this question himself ;D. Be aware, i've read that >99% of all persons need a few tries till they got a working reball.
Thanks a lot doggy dog, you are being very helpful
This is colophony?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Solid-Soldering-Flux-Rosin-Colophony-20g-/320876036622?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item4ab5b3c20e
I guess you mix it with isopropanol or alcohol right?
1) Right, you can reball the GPU as before.
2) You need a preheater for reballing and with a big and good preheater you don't need a jig, because the motherboard is complet at the same temperature and it will not warp. I don't use one for reflow or reballing.
3) The tin melts at about 225°C, but at this temperature it is already risky. If you don't pass 215°C, there won't be a damage. But before getting the board at 215°C, you have "temper" the board (I hope it's the right word, the translation said yes :D). For this you heat up the board with the preheater up to ~120°C (at the top) and stay at this temperature for one hour. By doing this all whater evaporates, thit prevents popping. Without tempering the board, you only can heat up up to ~200°C.
5) Artic Silver isn't cunductive, I measured it. But as DoggyDog said, I use cheap thermal paste, because there is only a very little difference between very cheep and very expensive paste. And a cheep paste doesn't rise the risk of YLOD, because the temperatures are the same, because the fan adjusts the temperature, if th cooling is not the best.
6) If you have a small stencil, you can heat it up with the balls. After that it will not be easy to remove the stencil, but with a little isopropyl it will be a lot easier.
temper as I am getting it you mean heating the board to make it more 'workable' by making all the same temperature not cold and hot areas (risk of warping)
tempering as such is a term used in mechanical engineering (my call) in heat treatment of steel. this is first hardened then tempered to reduce brittleness (eg chisels and swords)maybe it does not interest you but just exchange of general information ;)
I know that I have almost 'hijacked' this forum and you are having much patience in my regards, but I have another question. As I explained in my 1st post my ps3 manages to switch on and then does not stop anymore. Maybe because I mainly play a game (fifa 13) that does not load the gpu much?In that case just keep in mind that I will definitely get god of war next March and I think that will load the GPU. However to my question:what will you do in my place? reflow it now or wait until the system is completely gone that is does not switch at all. All I need is to the system to hold on until ps4 is released or maybe better still about 6 months from its release (its supposed to come out this November).So would you reflow now or when the system is completely flat?Thanks again
Of course, it's interesting me, good to know for the future.
But it is neither the first, nor the second meaning. It has nothing to do with heat und cold areas, because after the process you can cool down the board for a while and reflow/reball it later, as long as there is no water in the board.
If it's not fatally, if you will not be able to get access to your savegames, I would wait until the PS3 i completely flat.
oh ok you heat it just to eliminate moisture then
Right, that's all.
Wer einen klasse Ratgeber zum Thema YLOD Hilfelösung sucht: http://www.blu-rayler.de/forum/ps3-hardware/ylod-eine-erklarung-aus-erfahrung-t5413.html
War meine Rettung! :-)
:???
Das frag ich mich auch gerade. Zumal "Steffen." aus USA (Californien) zu kommen scheint.
Vielleicht hatte er ein ähnliches Anliegen und wollte sich freundlicherweise für den Thread bedanken?
Hi al,,
is it ok if I use 100% Ethanol instead of Isopropanol alcohol? to clean the blueray lens, clean the thermal paste and mix the colophony.
Ethanol isn't that bad as long as it's 100% pure. But Iso should be cheaper and (im not sure about this) safer. To clean the blu-ray lens i use only my "mist" i produce by exhaling, don't know the englishdefinition for it. And then as long as it's "wet" i use q-tips. Iso would only work but without it is safer.
Hi Takeshi, I dismantled my ps3 did a reflow and mounted it again. Everything went very smooth. I must say that your guide is soooo helpful and professional, I even labelled the screws that I took off as eg 18C, 18D 18 being the step number and C,D how it is labelled in the picture. It is a very very useful guide and would bring an otherwise problematic job to child play. Without the guide you will break something for sure.
As I said the ylod seem to have gone (after 2 days) today is Monday and I did the reflow last Saturday, I obtained some colophony and mixed it 3:1 with alcohol, I even heated the whole board before the reflow , then wrapped it in foil, leaving a cutout to acess the gpu from top and bottom.
About the thing that I had to tell you of the ps3 not switching off correctly however this is still there. It does not bother me much to tell the truth, but as a follow up I am telling you that, maybe you can gain experience from this.
At last but not the least thank you guys for your help.
PS: BGA kit arrived today hope that I would not have to use it.
The problem with shut-down can also be a softwareproblem?!
You can try to recover the file-system in service-menu?
I noticed that when I switch off before I 'quit game' that is switch off from the game's menu the ps switches off properly, it does not switch off properly when I switch off from the xmb menu. now that's odd because I beleive the proper way to switch off is first quit the game then turn off from the main menu.
however my note was more of a thank you than to mention any more troubles.
oops...ylod, it did it again :(
Then you have to reflow the GPU again. You used turoial 1? Add 15s at the top and 15s at the bottom.
Hi Takeshi, the reflow still gave me problems so I decided that I take off the chip. how can I post an image of the underneath motherboard in here so that you can tell me your opinion if I could try to fit a new RSX or scraP EVERYTHING?
Hello rod905,
Zitathow can I post an image ... in here
you have to use a imagehoster like imageshack or anything similar.
If you have uploaded the image, you will get a link to it (or you have to search for it by yourself). The imageadress has to be in a code
[img]http:\\www......jpg[/img].
(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/5456/dsc0137jo.jpg) can you people tell me if I am to scrap the ps or try and buy a new reballed rsx. trhank you sumsum
I think that at 1st glance I lifted 4 pads
Hoy have to clean the board more, there is to much old flux. But there are some solder pads broken. I don't know if they are needed.
to clean the board would be no problem, although there is no flux on it. I think some pads lifted yes, and I don't know how. I lifted the board at 252deg cel. I don' t know if it is possible to try and fill the hole under the pad with solder. I guess I better dump everything and wait for the ps4
Zitat von: rod905 am 28. April 2013, 18:45:31
to clean the board would be no problem, although there is no flux on it.
There IS, I see it ;)
Zitat von: rod905 am 28. April 2013, 18:45:31
I lifted the board at 252deg cel.
Too much.
I think (-> I don't know) all pads are only GND or main Voltage, so it's not the worst case.
so if you were in my place you would 'risk' buying a preballed rsx and fit it? (my rsx has popcorned during a previous reflow at 180 deg c).
I think if I had kept the temperature lower than 252 I would have pulled more pads because the solder would have been more solid, or no?
Yes, I would.
I only heat it up to ~230°C and it wirks fine. If you need 250°C, then the heat distribution was bad, you had hot spots.
(http://imageshack.us/f/195/e78qnqjynrzt238nvguy.png)
(http://imageshack.us/f/838/rsxgridrefpowerpinout.png)
Thanks Takeshi. I managed to find the pinout number and the respective schematic for this board so now I know where every pin connects and what it does. basically you have to short the pins skipping one. I will upload the images here for everyone to make use.
From the schematic and pinouts I discovered that from the 5 missing pads, the one in the centre is ground sense, it links to nowhere so Ill leave it as it is, the other 4 are vdd and ground. they need to connect with the one 2 spaces from each. I tested with the multimeter underneath a lens and found that this is correct (part of the trace should have been left in the 'hole' under the pad because I can get ontact to it after some trying with small gauge wirw attached to the probe. I will try to fix this issue with silver conductive paint (used to draw tracks).
My question is because I am really afraid of popcorning this bga that I am waiting for from ebay, and I have no way and means of prebaking it:
If I heat the motherboard to 210deg (gpu area from underneath mostly) then put the gpu in place, I will fix guides so it will go exactly in place (already did fix guides before I removed the old gpu so that I will mantain the exact location) will this work?
This way the gpu will never gets heat directly on top of it but the leaded balls at the bottom will make contact with the board that is at 205deg.Then obviously let it cool down by itself.
What do you think?
Here is an image of the board at the moment. I did clean it more like you (Takeshi)advised :) circled in red are the missing pads and the silver lines is to where they should connect. kindly advise on the method I mentioned before of heating only the motherboard and if this board is clean enough in your opinion or needs more
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6456/boardm.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6456/boardm.jpg)
I wouldn't fix the pads with silver conductive paint, because it will work, even if the pads are missing. There are much more close to the missing pads. And if you try to fix them, it's possible, that you make mistakes and thereby a short. So leave it as it is.
Zitat von: rod905 am 30. April 2013, 11:29:24
If I heat the motherboard to 210deg (gpu area from underneath mostly) then put the gpu in place, I will fix guides so it will go exactly in place (already did fix guides before I removed the old gpu so that I will mantain the exact location) will this work?
Yes, the BGA automatic moves to the right place, IF the position is nearly correct.
And I would put the BGA in place and then heat the board. You should heat the BGA directly, otherwise the contacts could be bad. If the BGA ist preballed with Pb-Solder, then the zinn melts at ~183°C and you don't need more then 210°C. 200°C up to 210°C would be good.
To prevent popcorning, heat up the mainboard (without BGA and flux) up to ~130°C and hold this temperature for an houre.
Now the board looks great ;)
Hi Takeshi what I was asking is:
Would it work if I heat the mainboard to 200deg then put the BGA on it and let it settle ther? Therefore the contacts of the preballed BGA will touch the mainboard which is at 200 and melt Nad the BGA will never get heated over directly. I just heat the mainboard from bottom and when it reaches 200 I put the BGA (RSX) on it and never heat the BGA.
As I said before, I wouldn't do it like this. It coukd work, but this way isn't really good.
Zitat von: Takeshi am 30. April 2013, 13:51:26
To prevent popcorning, heat up the mainboard (without BGA and flux) up to ~130°C and hold this temperature for an houre.
I was saying I am afraid of the RSX popcorning not the mainboard.
and another thing, is there a way to check if an RSX is good or not before installing?
I don't think you'll get popcorning of the RSX. If you have popcorning of the RSX, your temperature from the heatgun is to high. If the RSX is mounted with Pb-free solder (original), you have to heat to 220°C ore more. The risk of popcorning is high. But if you use Pb-solder, you only need about 180°C (better 200°C) and then the risk is lower ;)
If you don't heat the RSX directly, it's possible that the temperature of the solder is not consistent and very soon you may get the YLOD again.
To check the RSX, look at this guide (http://www.trisaster.de/page/index.php?topic=484) first. By measuring the resistance between the the power supply and ground, you can see if there is a shortage. Now if you follow the conductor, you get the pads where the power supply and the ground is.
By doing this you don't absolutely know, if the RSX is OK, but if there is a shortage, you definitely know that the RSX is broken. But I never had a RSX with "good" values which didn't work.
I am seeing the guide which unfortunately is in German. I translated it with google but it still does not make much sense. How come the arrows are pointing to the motherboard? that means that I have to solder the new rsx before testing it? in that case I might as well assemble the console. I wish to test the rsx before soldering.
ok you told me to follow the conductor to the pad. sorry my bad :)
but still in the picture there are arrows which are pointing to places on the motherboard where there are no contacts eg:1,2,5
The numbers shown in the picture are different powersupplys of the RSX, measure them against ground. If you have 0,5 ohms at point 1 and/or 0-2 ohms at the other points your RSX is defect. If your values are higher, it not means that the RSX is OK.
yes ok that part I understood. but pomts 1,2 and 5 are pointing to areas where there are no contacts.
Is there a way to get the pinouts of the GPU to check? eg G7 to ground, AH12 to gnd and so on?
The Arrows are pointing to a coductor, where many contacts are connected to. Because of this you can use any of the connected contacts and not only one. If I put the arrow to exactly one contact, someone could think he can only use THIS contact. And, of course, you can remove the varnisch from the copper ;)
is it possible to have the pinout numbers on the rsx which ones to test for ohmage?
These are very much. And quickly I don't have the pin-numbers.
(http://imageshack.us/f/838/rsxgridrefpowerpinout.png/)
here are the chip pinouts
http://imageshack.us/f/838/rsxgridrefpowerpinout.png
Now on this page (http://www.trisaster.de/page/index.php?topic=484#1162) there is also an image with all power supplies.
(http://www.trisaster.de/file/sony/ps3/hardware/rsx_messpunkte_spannungsversorgung.png)
Thanks Takeshi very kind and informative of you. Where I should measure and what (approximate) values should I expect?
You should measure like before: Between ground and power supply. And like before, I can't call you the values, because they deversify very much. The resistance of the first one (red, main supply) is very low, ~0,5Ω to 3Ω, but this depends on the multimeter. The other are higher. If one of them is broken, the value is mostly unter 2Ω. But what's the "normal" value, I can't say.
eh ok, so you should check the 8 colours to grnd. I presume that I don't have to check every single one because they are connected in parallel right? the value should be at least 2ohms+multimeter/probes resistance to be good.
Zitat von: rod905 am 06. Mai 2013, 20:06:09
I presume that I don't have to check every single one because they are connected in parallel right?
Right ;) Choose one of them, that's enough.
At some pads I have 200kΩ (i think it was yellow), but with another multimeter it could be 1kΩ or 20MΩ. The lowest value was 12Ω I think, the next ~100Ω and the other 1kΩ or more.
But until now, every broken RSX had a resistance under 2Ω.
Hi Takeshi, I received the chip today and tested pinouts AD23-AD24 and found them to be 0 ohms. I guess I would be right to say that there is no way this chip would work right?I already contacted the seller to advise him of that.
I had one, there was the resistance ~0,1Ω (main suplly, red) and I only mounted the RSX to get the PS3 complete and the PS3 worked. I don't know why, because 0,1Ω at 1,2V means 12A (-> 14,W) for nothing. I have to mention, it was only one RSX like that which worked.
You could test it, but the problem ist, if it doesn't work, you don't know why. But I think it won't work.
well 12A is a lot of current even for a power tool, let alone for an electronic circuit of that size. I don't think it is wise to try it:
1)you will solder it, heating the mainboard (I think you are giving the mainboard a really hard time each time you heat it)
2)you will have to take it off again and reclean, risking of lifting more pads
3) it will be more difficult for the seller to accept back
Yes, taht's right.
I received another chip today, this time from elitasia. red-gnd is 1.5ohms, the other colours are all over 200K. I am thinking this is a good chip, and I was right on sending the other chip back. I will be trying to solder it tomorrow as i have the gun. what do you think Takeshi?
further to that I took the rsx chip with me to work and baked it in an oven drier for approx 5hrs at 120degc, then placed it in a bag with silica gel bags and taped to reduce moisture absorption. I read that that this greatly reduces popcorning risk.
Both right ;)
Heated up to 200 slowly, let it cool. no popcorning this time round. assembled everything.. still ylod. Now everything will go into the bin, had I done it at first I would have saved myself lots of energy, and money.
thats too bad :-\
Not every unit is saveable but you tried. That's what counts.